Ep. 035 - Hiring for the Frontlines of Critical Infrastructure with Nathaniel Smith
VP at SR2
What does it take to build a cybersecurity workforce capable of protecting the systems that keep the lights on and food on our plates?
In this episode, host Kristin Demoranville is joined by Nathaniel Smith, Co-Founder and VP at SR2, a purpose-driven recruitment firm. Nathaniel, who specializes in hiring OT/ICS, brings over 14 years of recruiting experience and a refreshing dose of honesty to the challenges of hiring in critical infrastructure.
Together, they explore what makes a strong Operational Technology (OT) candidate (spoiler: it’s not just certifications), why culture fit matters as much as technical skills, and how broken hiring processes often keep the best people out. For sectors like food and agriculture, where operational technology is directly tied to safety, production, and public trust, getting the right people into the right roles isn’t just important. It’s essential.
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📖 Kristin will also be sharing updates, behind-the-scenes chaos, and the occasional existential crisis over on her personal Substack
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Show Notes:
Mike Holcomb’s Episode (here)
SEC Ruling on Disclosure of Cyber Incidents (here)
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Episode Key Highlights
00:04:50 – OT as Public Service
00:08:27 – Recruiter Perspective in OT
00:09:42 – What Makes a Good OT Hire
00:12:04 – Trust and Floor Experience
00:13:59 – OT vs. IT Culture
00:18:09 – The Talent Shortage Myth
00:20:18 – Broken Hiring Systems
00:22:50 – Job Descriptions That Miss the Mark
00:27:00 – Current OT Hiring Trends
00:29:30 – Who’s Hiring in OT
00:32:00 – Community in OT
00:33:00 – Why Specialized Recruiting Matters
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🛡️ About AnzenSage & AnzenOT
AnzenSage is a women-owned cybersecurity advisory firm specializing in security resilience for the food, agriculture, zoo, and aquarium industries. AnzenSage offers practical, strategic guidance to help organizations anticipate risks and build resilience. Learn more about their offerings at anzensage.com.
AnzenOT
Industrial Cyber Risk — Simple. Smart. Swift.
AnzenOT is the SaaS risk management platform built to bring clarity and control to Operational Technology (OT) cybersecurity. Designed for critical infrastructure sectors, AnzenOT translates technical risk into clear, actionable insight for decision-makers.
Sign up for a free trial (here)
Listen to full episode :
Episode Guide:
00:00:27 – Intro to the Episode
00:01:35 – Welcome and Setup for the Conversation
00:04:05 – Nathaniel Introduces Himself
00:05:04 – OT as Public Service
00:06:05 – From the UK to Austin
00:07:19 – Mid-episode break and Book Plug
00:08:07 – Why Nathaniel Belongs in OT
00:09:42 – What a Recruiter Looks for in OT Candidates
00:12:04 – Why Floor Experience Matters
00:13:59 – OT vs. IT Culture
00:14:34 – OT Community and Systems Thinking
00:18:09 – Challenging the Talent Shortage
00:20:18 – Problems with Hiring Processes
00:22:50 – Job Role Misunderstandings
00:27:00 – Market Trends in OT Hiring
00:29:30 – Sector Demand for OT Roles
00:30:55 – OT Degrees and the Future
00:32:00 – Connection and Community
00:33:47 – Final Reflections
00:35:13 – Outro and Thanks
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00:00:27 Kristin Demoranville
Hey there and welcome to the bites and Bites podcast. I'm your host, Kristin Demoranville. This episode is all about.
00:00:34 Kristin Demoranville
Hiring, and more specifically, how we find the right people to protect the systems that keep things moving in our modern world. That includes the food we grow, the products we process and the infrastructure that holds it all together. We're talking about operational technology or OT. If that's not a term you use every day, here's the simplest way to.
00:00:55 Kristin Demoranville
Think about it.
00:00:56 Kristin Demoranville
OT is a technology that runs machines in the physical world. It opens valves, keeps the lights on, moves conveyor belts, cools food and makes sure water flows when and where it should. It's not your laptop or your e-mail, it's the technology that makes modern life work.
00:01:14 Kristin Demoranville
And when it comes to OT hiring the right people is everything because of the wrong person is in the wrong role. The risk isn't just our time, it's real world consequences in sectors like Food and Agriculture, that can mean safety issues, broken supply chains, and serious impacts on communities we serve. Let's get into it.
00:01:35 Kristin Demoranville
Awesome. Well, I'm excited because this has been like the conversation we've had for a bit. We're going to be talking a little bit more about recruiting in this episode, and I'm going to let our guests talk about their favorite food and favorite food memory 1st, and then we'll go into your introductions per usual. So go for it.
00:01:52 Nathaniel Smith
Nice. So favorite food.
00:01:54 Nathaniel Smith
Is a difficult one because I like nearly all food, but I'd say Spanish small plates.
00:02:00 Kristin Demoranville
Thomas.
00:02:00 Nathaniel Smith
Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Tapas. That's what you call.
00:02:03 Nathaniel Smith
It, yeah.
00:02:04 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, it's tapas. Yeah. So, tapas. She’s the one for me. But I know that it's not really a specific food. It's more a way of, yeah, serving food. But yeah, exactly.
00:02:13 Kristin Demoranville
Preparing food.
00:02:15
So why?
00:02:16 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, that's number one. And and do you know what I'm sad. Tapas.
00:02:20 Nathaniel Smith
Isn't really a thing in Austin. I I haven't seen much and maybe I haven't sought out specifically, but I'd definitely like to be in some type of.
00:02:30 Kristin Demoranville
Well, if any of the listeners know of any good tapas places in Austin, make sure you, you know, shout out your friend.
00:02:34
And yeah.
00:02:36 Nathaniel Smith
Absolutely. I mean, I forgot they just called tapas because I haven't had it for so long. So I've definitely got tapas craving.
00:02:41 Kristin Demoranville
Right now? Well, I know plenty good times.
00:02:43 Kristin Demoranville
Places that are not in.
00:02:44 Kristin Demoranville
Austin so whenever you travel out, we'll make sure you get taken.
00:02:47 Nathaniel Smith
Care of? Just send them over. I'll do your trip specifically for the.
00:02:51 Nathaniel Smith
1st.
00:02:51 Kristin Demoranville
Well, that's great. That's great. And do you have a favorite food memory? Does it involve tapas?
00:02:55 Nathaniel Smith
Or is it something else? Yeah. So I was in Madrid, I think it was last year. And I mean that place is under rated. Everyone talks about Barcelona.
00:03:06 Nathaniel Smith
Barcelona is great, it's got a beach, we get it. But Madrid is incredible for for food they've got this, this market open market, the best oysters that you're gonna have ever. And there's there's also a restaurant called La Concha that just did, like tapas, small plates. It was, it was strange.
00:03:26 Nathaniel Smith
Food, right? It was stuff that you're like, I don't know.
00:03:28 Nathaniel Smith
What part of?
00:03:29 Nathaniel Smith
Animal this is from Bay was phenomenal and it was like underrated, underappreciated, like Super low key, not flashy or shiny, just incredible incredible food. So yeah, that's that's where the food memory comes.
00:03:43 Kristin Demoranville
From so yeah, I think that's the best to see atmosphere. How you felt when you were there. To me that's the more of the food memory.
00:03:49 Kristin Demoranville
Moments. You just made me think of Japan and a few experiences I had there that were very similar. Where you what you were eating, but everything was amazing. You need to go. We talked about this offline, yeah.
00:03:57 Nathaniel Smith
Let's go for so long so.
00:04:00 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah, it's been a long time for me too, but that's OK. Thank you for that. Go ahead and introduce yourself to.
00:04:05 Nathaniel Smith
Everybody. Sure. So I'm Nathaniel, I'm a a co-founder of business called SR2. Actually responsible recruitment will be called certified technology recruitment established by 7 years. And I guess I am fully immersed in the world.
00:04:21 Nathaniel Smith
Of OT ICS cyber security been recruiting this phase for for a while now and I support companies, consultancies, MSPs vendor.
00:04:30 Nathaniel Smith
Asset owners in strengthening their OT cybersecurity teams and I guess what, you know what I what I like to think makes me a little bit different from like other recruiters in this space A there aren't that many OT recruiters in in in this world. So kind of one of the few. But this isn't a means to an end for me. It kind of goes further than that. Like if I just wanted to.
00:04:50 Nathaniel Smith
Plays a transactional game and put bums on seats. There are a ton of other spaces I could be in AI being one of them.
00:04:57 Nathaniel Smith
I've kind of fallen in love with OT ICS. I love the community and I also feel so someone said to me.
00:05:04 Nathaniel Smith
So it it.
00:05:04 Nathaniel Smith
Was a an OC engineer in the energy space, he said. I feel like I'm doing a public service service for my company, for my country and I was like, that's such a good way of looking at OT.
00:05:16 Nathaniel Smith
Like if I really do feel that is the case, because if if Austin energy or some like these big transmission or energy companies get hacked and they shut down energy in a in a in in a city or in a state like we're in trouble like hospitals would lose power and and like critical infrastructure will lose power and it will cause.
00:05:36 Nathaniel Smith
Being spread panic and chaos. Pandemonium. So like I almost. I can't. I can't. I can't say that I'm quite at the tip of the spear. Like like like you like guys who are actually doing it here. But I'm. I'm in there. I'm like when when companies are struggling to hire the right talent and I'm putting the right people in in those positions, I do feel like I'm contributing.
00:05:57 Nathaniel Smith
From what to this ecosystem and that makes me very happy. So yeah, that's that's kind of a little bit about my focus on OT. I'm happy to.
00:06:05 Nathaniel Smith
To kind of lift the lid on that and go.
00:06:07 Kristin Demoranville
A little bit deeper. Well, I think we should track back just a little bit because you're talking about Austin, but your accent doesn't reflect Austin. So people probably want to know how you got from.
00:06:16 Nathaniel Smith
Here to there. No. I'm. I'm from Austin. Born and bred. Been here for three years and I'm from. I'm from a little island called the United Kingdom. Couple of islands.
00:06:20
Oh God.
00:06:25 Nathaniel Smith
And I'm from Bristol, which is on the West Coast, would be speak like farmers if you need a barometer of UK accents.
00:06:33 Kristin Demoranville
I'm sorry for all the farmers that might be listening. He's not trying to be a jerk. He's actually he's out with love.
00:06:35 Nathaniel Smith
No, no, no, no.
00:06:38 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, absolutely. A little bit of a farmer twang. And because the West Country is.
00:06:43 Nathaniel Smith
It's quite beautiful, or at least it was. So yeah. From the UK, I moved to the US about 10 months ago, but I've been working in the US for about 2 1/2 years, been operating here for about 2 1/2 years, obviously late nights, and the UK work in the US market easily the worst two years of my life. But anyway, let's let's not dwell on that. I'm here now and that's the main thing.
00:07:04 Kristin Demoranville
Yes, it's it's great. Thank you for that, because I just don't want everybody to be confused that Austin had a British accent that would be very strange, so.
00:07:19
Let's take a quick.
00:07:19 Kristin Demoranville
Break I want.
00:07:20 Kristin Demoranville
To thank you for listening to this.
00:07:21 Kristin Demoranville
Episode if it.
00:07:23 Kristin Demoranville
Is heading home please like share. Leave a comment and send it to someone in your network. You might enjoy it. These conversations don't get enough attention that they deserve and you can help change that. Also if you want a bit more context behind the scenes thoughts and slightly unhinged extras.
00:07:39 Kristin Demoranville
Check out the podcast sub stack.
00:07:41 Kristin Demoranville
Like is on the show now.
00:07:43 Kristin Demoranville
Also, just a reminder, I am writing a book. It's called securing what feeds us and it's coming out in autumn of 2026. You can sign up for updates and some fun surprises at the link in.
00:07:53 Kristin Demoranville
The show notes.
00:07:54 Kristin Demoranville
I'm also sharing my writing journey. Thoughts on cybersecurity, OT Food and Agriculture, and the occasional rant over on my personal sub stack that also is in.
00:08:04 Kristin Demoranville
The show notes.
00:08:05 Kristin Demoranville
All right, let's get back to the conversation.
00:08:07 Kristin Demoranville
That's great. I do think that you're part of the OT community. I don't think you sit on the peripheral. I think that you're in it because you're helping to move the pieces around and get people to where they need to be and better suited for their roles. So I want to, I completely consider you part of the community. I think the Community considers you part of the Community. I don't like you. I saw 0 weirdness when we were at, you know.
00:08:27 Kristin Demoranville
Well, the OCS conferences this past year.
00:08:29 Kristin Demoranville
So I again, I think you're part of it. If anything, you probably have a more interesting perspective because you see a little bit of everything right because you got, you know, different sectors and different regions and you kind of see people in a different way and whether it's federal or private and all kinds of other things also you probably get an interesting perspective as well.
00:08:49 Kristin Demoranville
Because the different countries interacting with different aspects of OT, I know we're very close with our Canadian colleagues. So that also I always find that adds to my knowledge that big time because of the way that they're trying to do things and how we're trying to.
00:09:02 Kristin Demoranville
Things because there's no no borders for us. We don't look at it like that. No tea for sure. And I like that person's quote. I always say it's not about the data, it's about safeguarding lives. I probably should put that on a T-shirt at some point or or hit. But it's true. It's true. That's what we do. And it's it's such a joy to be in this industry. And I love that I serve food and act.
00:09:15 Nathaniel Smith
How much?
00:09:22 Kristin Demoranville
I think that.
00:09:23 Kristin Demoranville
For me, I keep people fed and safe and thriving and feels good, and I know that people don't really ask feel the same way about that, and it's great. So it's awesome. So why don't why don't we talk a little bit about what it's like to be a recruiter in the OT space? Because I know a lot of people sitting here are OT, and I know a lot of people are in critical infrastructure that includes.
00:09:32 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:42 Kristin Demoranville
All the food and agricultural people that are listening, you are critical infrastructure.
00:09:45 Kristin Demoranville
Let's talk about that. Like what kind of person are you looking for in this?
00:09:48 Kristin Demoranville
Very in general.
00:09:49 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah. Good question. Yeah, it's not. It's not really like one type of person. One thing that I learned quite early on about OT is how broad it is as a yeah, as a it's it's a niche, but it's still, it's still a big. It's a big surface area and there's lots of different skill sets within. Yeah, within this.
00:10:09 Nathaniel Smith
Within this space. So yeah, I could be looking for like an OTT threat Hunter one day I could be looking for kind of OT consultant working for one of the big consultancies, the next right down.
00:10:20 Nathaniel Smith
To yeah, write down to kind of roles that touch IT OT and then have like a kind of a foot on either side of the fence to really as broad and so like the say like the best people I've played for like the, the, the people that tend to get like the best response from my clients are those people.
00:10:41 Nathaniel Smith
Who has done the shop floor? Who's kind of, yeah, they, they.
00:10:44 Kristin Demoranville
MHM.
00:10:45 Nathaniel Smith
Interacted with control systems like in a in, in a, in a software environment, they've they've worn steel, toe cap boots, and when Nomex suits and hard hats and they've they've they've seen it, they've seen it in real life, they know what it's like from a tangible perspective. And then they've progressed into cyber security. So it could be like.
00:11:05 Nathaniel Smith
Controls engineer automations.
00:11:08
There.
00:11:08 Nathaniel Smith
And they've progressed into OT. Cybersecurity like that tends to be they tend to be the people that get their the best reception. That said, like, it doesn't mean that if you come from like a different your route to to OT is different. It doesn't matter. It really doesn't like there's a ton of people who could do OT. I think there's a ton of people that want to do OT and I think we.
00:11:29 Nathaniel Smith
You need to we do need to keep the bar high. It's for obvious reasons, because there's big different differences between the IC folk and OC folk. But yeah, there's lots of. There's lots of roots in the OT ecosystem that people can explore if they're if they're trying to get in. Hopefully that answers your question have gone off on a bit of a time.
00:11:46 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah. No, you you did great. That's actually. And you were making me think that it comes down to trust a lot. You can't have an OT individual go into a production area regardless of what industry it is without knowing how to be in that production area. That's something you can teach and train. Of course. Absolutely.
00:12:04 Kristin Demoranville
But if you're hiring someone for a specific role or a senior type role, they need to know how to be. And I I often say that, especially with the newcomers that are coming in the first time, I said you need to go on some factory tours, you need to start to understand how things work, how the yellow line is. Don't get off that kind of thing and where your PPE, whether that's a hair net or still to the.
00:12:24 Kristin Demoranville
Foods or whatever has to happen. There's something about being in an industrial environment or on a factory floor.
00:12:29 Kristin Demoranville
More that sort of feels, and I know a lot of the two people are gonna be like, yeah. And the second when I say it, but it sort of feels like, you know, coming home in a way, it's like a big community of people. And everybody's got a different role and somehow it all just seems to work. And it's kind of magical in that regard. But the fact that you get to sort of be part of the ecosystem, but also one of the most important parts of it is really.
00:12:51 Kristin Demoranville
I think it's an honor to be able to do that, and I think that's the difference between like certain types of roles inside these environments is how people are perceiving it.
00:13:00 Kristin Demoranville
So if someone has that type of mentality up front, you could train the floor easily at that point. But I think it's the willingness to be part of a community that's so crucial for that is you can't just walk and be like, I know what I'm doing. I'm the best. You're doing stuff wrong. Like that's you're you're gonna get kicked out. Trust me, it's 100% a kickout moment.
00:13:13 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah.
00:13:15 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah.
00:13:19 Nathaniel Smith
I agree with you.
00:13:20 Nathaniel Smith
Thing like the I'm one of the things cause I've been on both sides of the fence, have recruited for 14 years and I've recruited in, in, in IT and and now OT and and the IT for the majority of it. And I feel like and I'm not bad my thing like you do get more. I feel like in OT people are.
00:13:38 Nathaniel Smith
There's a willingness to work together. There's a willingness not to stamp your feet, right, whereas in IT it feels like some people want to come in and do right with doing it this way, I'm gonna stamp my feet. It's my way or the highway, you know, like, you know, T you do that, you break something. The whole thing shuts down.
00:13:59 Nathaniel Smith
I mean you, you just can't do that. And maybe that's why it's the way it is and why it doesn't. It's not gonna work for everyone who's coming from, like, an IT background and.
00:13:59 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah.
00:14:08 Nathaniel Smith
And it. But yeah, the ecosystem is just awesome. Like it just. Yeah, super welcoming. There aren't that many ********. I mean, they're maybe you could poop, but hey, you can't be perfect.
00:14:22 Kristin Demoranville
That's that's for a different episode. Exactly. I think you maybe think about it a lot because I compare, I try to compare and contrast a lot when it comes to different sectors, especially since I'm in food and.
00:14:34 Kristin Demoranville
And there's an inherent distrust nature to agriculture, and that's not a negative thing. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Just farmers like to say to their own communities because they trust that community and they've they help get help from the community. And they also help in that community. The OT community feels like that to me. We generally distrust everything on the outside, but we are. We'll welcome you in any ways and try to work with it.
00:14:54 Kristin Demoranville
And I do think that that is why we're uniquely suited for critical infrastructure because we have.
00:15:00 Kristin Demoranville
To sort of.
00:15:01 Kristin Demoranville
Distrust things, but also be welcomed to different ideas because we're system thinkers and understand that everything is in a sphere, and if you mess up something on one side, the other side is going to get banged up as well. And we also know that you could sneeze 10 miles away from a facility and production will shut down. So you know the running joke is you could trip over something that.
00:15:21 Kristin Demoranville
You trip over the sidewalk of a pavement somewhere else in another country, and it cuts your production off. It's it's a running joke, like all these little jokes that we have so many different, subtle nuances, and you have to be open and adaptable and ready to be flexible when something weird happens. We've all had weird things happen and.
00:15:39 Kristin Demoranville
Stuff that just makes us laugh now, but at the time it was horrible. You know what I mean? Or trying to understand why a user would do that that caused that to cause this to potentially hurt somebody, you know, by accident, of course, or even intentionally for that matter. And it's it's so fascinating that you say that because maybe think of it immediately.
00:16:01 Kristin Demoranville
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00:16:08 Kristin Demoranville
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00:16:10 Kristin Demoranville
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00:16:21 Kristin Demoranville
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00:16:26 Kristin Demoranville
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00:17:45 Kristin Demoranville
I've always felt like factories were full of aunts and uncles and you gotta earn your ride in and you get hazed a little bit, you know? But it's all in good fun. It's like family.
00:17:53 Kristin Demoranville
Types right? You get picked on a little bit even to this day. I haven't seen some of them in 10 years and I know I could call them up and be like old times and I know everyone in OT has got a story.
00:18:03 Kristin Demoranville
Like that and that's that's hard.
00:18:05 Kristin Demoranville
To it's hard to.
00:18:06 Kristin Demoranville
Hire for, right? That's that would be hard to hire for.
00:18:09 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, it can be. I think there's there's kind of, there's some miss in OT, Ryan kind of supply and demand. I would say that there's a lot of stuff that gets put out there around the talent shortage and.
00:18:23 Nathaniel Smith
I don't know whether it's like strictly speaking true. Like there there, there's a lot of articles out there that that, that site, this great cyber security sure is and great OT cyber security shortage and I'm like there is. But then there's also problems with the recruitment market and the way companies.
00:18:43 Nathaniel Smith
About hiring and I think most of it actually boils down to that opposed to opposed to there being a actual shortage of of candidates either. I think there are there's lots of talent I in OT, but companies aren't doing the right things to to to kind of.
00:19:00 Nathaniel Smith
Get in front of those those people and then on the candidate side, sometimes the candidates are doing the obvious stuff, but then that's it. And and and they're not getting, they're not getting in front of the the the clients. So it's just like this disconnect and and then there's also other factors like some of the bigger companies have.
00:19:00 Kristin Demoranville
When it.
00:19:15
Yeah.
00:19:20 Nathaniel Smith
Recruiting processes that are archaic.
00:19:22 Kristin Demoranville
Absurd.
00:19:23 Kristin Demoranville
They're absurd.
00:19:24 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and they they your ruling people, good people like like immediately because good people won't go through your crazy process and you're like, why are you doing this? You're you're making life difficult for yourselves. There's there's one company in in particular. Right. And it's I won't name any names.
00:19:43 Kristin Demoranville
Again so.
00:19:43 Nathaniel Smith
Naturally. But there's one company in particular, and I'm I've been working with them for a little while, and the candidates that I'm sending to them, so they got a bunch of bunch of open racks and the candidates I'm sending to them are candidates that are in their system, they don't know.
00:19:57 Nathaniel Smith
And that they're in their system and it blows my mind and that that that's just an example of, yeah, of it being disjointed. And there are there are dozen other examples of the recruitment like process being disjointed and it's causing issues and then you you throw in AI and the the impact that AI's had on the recruitment process.
00:20:18 Nathaniel Smith
This and candidates being ruled out because they don't have the right keywords in their in, in their resumes. It's it's chaos I hear. I understand from a from a job seeker perspective. I understand how frustrating it must be. Like you apply for dozens of roles and yeah and you don't hear back and we need to do better ultimately.
00:20:37 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah, we do.
00:20:39 Nathaniel Smith
We we we need to bear. There's there's there's so much to unpick.
00:20:42 Nathaniel Smith
But yeah, we need to do better. I know we've gone off on a bit of a.
00:20:45 Kristin Demoranville
Tangent there, but yeah, it's definitely no. Yeah. But I mean, you definitely have sleepers mode song stuck in my head now called Job seeker. So anybody who wants to look that up go for it because that's exactly what I was thinking. Even though it applies to the UK, it's still very relevant to everybody else. But it's it's true and also the mental health toll.
00:21:02 Kristin Demoranville
I have so many friends that are out of work right now for whatever reason, and the mental load of having to apply for jobs full time to be rejected consistently, to not to being good.
00:21:11 Nathaniel Smith
Ah.
00:21:14 Kristin Demoranville
The ghosting is the worst of it. If there's no transparency in it, and This is why I resonate with what you're doing is because you're very transparent. You, you tell people up front like, hey, this is your process going to look like and whatever you know, you're not going to, you're not going to sugarcoat it, you're going to be real about it. And I think people need that and that and especially in the OT space, we don't time for fake sugar coated.
00:21:34 Kristin Demoranville
Anything, and also our skill sets are so needed. The shortage for us is just we don't have enough experts to go around in in the regard of longevity of time and sector specific knowledge, there's very few of us that are doing certain things and we can only stretch so far, right?
00:21:49 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, yeah. And then you got like, honestly, I say that, that there is a massive.
00:21:54 Nathaniel Smith
There that there is a shortage because companies need, like you say, specific skill sets, specific the domain knowledge could be it could be something else and then they need the person in a certain location. They need to be able to travel a certain amount. So as soon as you add a couple of these confined.
00:22:09 Nathaniel Smith
And the salary it does whistle the ball down quite significantly and they're left with a smaller talent pool, but they're still not. There's still a disconnect in terms of like, once you know what, that talent, who that talent pool is and they're within those confines, companies still on reaching. Yeah. That's why I've got a job because I'm I can connect the two, but I still feel like.
00:22:30 Nathaniel Smith
In in terms of like the wider ecodes, I want to see it improve. Obviously my impacts on my success, but just for the.
00:22:40 Nathaniel Smith
Success of the the the OT ICS ecosystem and to make sure that we are getting the right people in the right places so we can protect our critical infrastructure. I think yeah, as I say, we need to.
00:22:50 Kristin Demoranville
Do better. I think companies need to be able to express what they need better. I know I talked to a lot of different companies and they know that they need an OT person, but what they have is working for them.
00:23:01 Kristin Demoranville
So they're a little nervous about, like, I don't know, rocking the boat, if you will, or they are describing roles to me in other places. I'm like, well, that's OT. And they're like, what's?
00:23:09 Kristin Demoranville
That, and I'm like there needs to.
00:23:10 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah.
00:23:11 Kristin Demoranville
We I know this is gonna sound ridiculous, and I'm sure I'm going to get a little backlash for this, but we almost need standards in the way that we communicate jobs within critical infrastructure. And I realize in some ways we have that, but we also have it on a Community side within our community and not like on the outside because I don't know how many times I have.
00:23:29 Kristin Demoranville
To explain what OT is.
00:23:31 Kristin Demoranville
To people or what I see us is.
00:23:33 Kristin Demoranville
They have to give examples, otherwise they won't know. So I'll be like, OK, I'll look around where I am in a room and I'll be like, OK, so the elevator, that's those heat and they're like, oh, and then they start like, you see the wheels turning. And then lots of other things come out and you're like, OK, great you.
00:23:46 Kristin Demoranville
Got it. Great.
00:23:47 Kristin Demoranville
Now you're never gonna not see it. Have a nice day, you know. So and it's it's hard that we that we don't realize how our modern world.
00:23:49 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:54 Kristin Demoranville
Works and even our companies like.
00:23:57 Kristin Demoranville
That really like that blows my mind a lot, but then again, we don't need to know what it is. It just works like we walk in. We flip the light and yay, you know, it's Hooray or we go to the grocery store, we get whatever we want. And there's some seasons and we don't know how our food got.
00:24:04
Hey.
00:24:10 Kristin Demoranville
There and or how it?
00:24:11 Kristin Demoranville
Was made, or who did what and things? That's it's just amazing to me.
00:24:15 Kristin Demoranville
That we've gotten to this place.
00:24:17 Kristin Demoranville
As a as a species that we don't have to worry about the kind of stuff in our modern first world countries, I don't know. There's just something about it that sort of bothers me that I have to keep explaining what things are like that and we'll have to probably for my entire career and that's OK.
00:24:30 Nathaniel Smith
Absolutely. But pre pre OT honestly, I hadn't given this stuff that much consideration and then it's kind of a blessing and a curse when you when you open Pandora's box and you're like right, all of this stuff is at risk. And all of this stuff is being attacked like all the.
00:24:49 Nathaniel Smith
Time all the time.
00:24:50 Kristin Demoranville
Right. Yeah. I have a lot of conversations with people that are that say things like, oh, I'm just a small little brigading company, and wherever nobody's gonna attack me, I said, but yes, you have the same systems as the big players. If one thing gets popped that don't kid yourself for half for half a second, if they can make some money off of you, they will.
00:25:08 Kristin Demoranville
So or just to disrupt because people are jerks and it's it's funny. It's funny having those conversations because I think it's so sci-fi. They think what we do is sci-fi. I mean, sure, some, I guess, kind of in some ways it is. I mean, it feels that way some days. But generally speaking, we're not. We're not that though, we're not like engineers running on a Starship. That's like.
00:25:12 Nathaniel Smith
Oh yeah.
00:25:29 Kristin Demoranville
Millions of miles away. And this is happening here.
00:25:31 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here, here. In our daily every minute. Like, there's there's stuff happening. So yeah.
00:25:32
Ohh look at this.
00:25:33
Yeah.
00:25:37 Kristin Demoranville
It's true, it's very true.
00:25:46 Kristin Demoranville
Have a try and managing industrial cybersecurity risk with spreadsheets, yeah.
00:25:52 Kristin Demoranville
We've been there too at Anson, OT. We're changing the game for OT risk management. No more clunky tools, no more silo data. Just a smarter, faster and usable way to understand and reduce your risks. Whether you're in food production, energy, manufacturing.
00:26:10 Kristin Demoranville
Or anywhere critical infrastructure keeps the world running.
00:26:13 Kristin Demoranville
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00:26:29 Kristin Demoranville
Where the 1st?
00:26:30 Kristin Demoranville
To combined AI driven insights with scenario based model.
00:26:34 Kristin Demoranville
So you can not only see your current risk, but also be prepared for what could happen next. And with built in Playbooks you won't be left scrambling when things go sideways. Is everything industrial cybersecurity management should be smart and swift learnmore@anxiety.com and see where critical infrastructure.
00:26:48 Kristin Demoranville
Simple.
00:26:53 Kristin Demoranville
Leaders trust us to help them stay operational, safe and rest.
00:26:57 Kristin Demoranville
Client.
00:26:58 Kristin Demoranville
So tell me what you're working.
00:27:00 Nathaniel Smith
On now, good question. So despite everything that's happening and obviously there's the, the, the Fed and yeah, Despite that I'm still seeing growth in consulting like in the consultancy realm, particularly on the commercial side actually. So I'm working at the moment on lots of kind of.
00:27:17 Nathaniel Smith
Senior level.
00:27:18 Nathaniel Smith
Or consulting positions to people who can kind of straddle the technical and commercial they're they're the sort of skill sets that I'm kind of. They're in demand at the moment, but then also, yeah, quite strangely, there seems to be a lot of demand for OT, leadership talent at an asset owner level.
00:27:38
Hmm.
00:27:39 Nathaniel Smith
And I can't put my finger on why that is exactly because it will rewind back 12 months. There was, there was like a distinctive like middle management push at like 8 voters. So there were lots of people, team managers being like.
00:27:55 Nathaniel Smith
You know, 12 months ago and now it feels like the opposite is happening and there's like lots of demand for OT managers. What I have seen in the recent requirements is they're calling them OT IT managers and I'm like, are they trying to, are they trying to like double up and be, like, right, we'll just give this person both of these things.
00:28:15 Nathaniel Smith
These big, different, like important parts of our business. And then I don't know, maybe that's not the case, but that that's that's kind of what I'm seeing. There's there's always a demand for OT engineering talent as well and that's still that's still kind of.
00:28:29 Nathaniel Smith
And but it's.
00:28:30 Nathaniel Smith
Often on site in certain locations. So yeah, it's not always going to cater.
00:28:35 Kristin Demoranville
For everyone, I wonder if the OT leadership asset owner aspect is because roughly 12 months ago was when the SEC public disclosure came into play. So this is just me going down a different path here for a second. And I'm wondering if it's because of the.
00:28:50 Kristin Demoranville
Reporting and because of the fact that they have to report in for their shareholders in order to be compliant, if that's why they need to hire those roles, because once they were gone from that, they didn't have anybody who could talk that at all or speak to it, especially if they were these big industrial companies. I mean that was the first thing I thought when you said it was like it's probably the SEC rule so.
00:28:55 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah.
00:29:10 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, no, it could be that it could be.
00:29:12 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah, that's possible. So which which sectors do you see coming up more? And I realize you're in Austin, so obviously energy is going to skew, but it's OK.
00:29:21 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah. I mean, I recruit US wise. I do have clients in, in the local area, particularly in Houston and some in Austin as well in in energy and oil.
00:29:30 Nathaniel Smith
The the demand has been it kind of is across the board. I know that's not maybe the best answer, but really is like there there's there's right now if you if you jump on a job board and you look at the look for skill sets, you'll see manufacturing you'll see rail.
00:29:43 Nathaniel Smith
You'll see other.
00:29:44 Nathaniel Smith
Parts of transportation, energy, MSP's, consultancies, vendors, the whole.
00:29:50 Nathaniel Smith
So it really is kind of widespread, but I think where you see repeatable roles come up is probably.
00:29:56 Nathaniel Smith
Like consultancy, MSP, vendor and I've kind of aligned myself more in that space than than I say no, I do asset owner, I do support asset owners and some amazing work with some light energy companies, renewable companies, oil and gas, but like companies like Zombies and Dragos, they they're they're kind of experience in pretty significant growth at the moment so.
00:30:16 Nathaniel Smith
Those founders in in the OC ecosystem? Yeah, good places to look. If you are in OT and and and.
00:30:22 Nathaniel Smith
Looking for a.
00:30:22 Kristin Demoranville
New role for sure. Uh yeah, absolutely. And it's it's good to see growth. I think it's good to see growth. I think back like 10 years ago when the market was sort of just stale, nobody really knew what to do with OT yet they still were so.
00:30:35 Kristin Demoranville
I mean, unless you were in certain situations obviously, but I think with the way that the the current climate is going, I think a lot of the big consulting firms are going to struggle, cause they're losing some other federal contracts. So I think that we're going to see smaller niche MSP's and whatnot pop up, then I think is going to drive some of this for you too, should be really interesting. It's an interesting time.
00:30:55 Kristin Demoranville
BNOT, let's just say it it. Really. Yeah, it really is. And I think it's wild that people actually can get like their college degrees in OT now, which is, I mean, I'm still having trouble with people getting their degree in cyber securities on.
00:30:57 Nathaniel Smith
Every yes.
00:31:08 Kristin Demoranville
Wait, what? But it's it's still. It's interesting that now people are walking out with PHD's and you know ICS and things like that. And I think it's incredible. But what do you do with that? I want to know like, I I would. I mean I want to know you're gonna do like, what kind of cool research you're gonna do? You're gonna share with the rest of us. We're going to be even more.
00:31:23 Kristin Demoranville
Secure. Like tell me I get. I get excited about like geeky things like that. I'm like, I wanna know it all, but.
00:31:28 Kristin Demoranville
This is great.
00:31:29 Kristin Demoranville
I I love that you are doing this. I I'm glad that we connected when we did. And then we had actually met up at some conferences and then lobby con. Yeah. Yeah. Lobby Conn's great. But I think I think that the the people that are you're placing you're just gonna enhance the community even more. So like I said you're so part of it and going back to like the the food and add part for a second.
00:31:49 Kristin Demoranville
The way our community works is very similar to that and and how it's building of trust and it's building of experienced trust and moving through that community aspect and in such a way that.
00:32:00 Kristin Demoranville
It's it's enjoyable. We deal with life threatening, very serious things every day. But the fact that we all can, you know, have a laugh, have a beer, relax and you know and have a good time and then share some war stories and have those stories of blood stained T-shirts and production floor mishaps and craziness, you know, and what we think about things that are going on in the various countries that we all live in.
00:32:21 Kristin Demoranville
And backgrounds, but we come together and all that knowledge is collected and it just pays forward to everyone in the industry. Yeah, just at the end of the day, we want people to live their modern lives that having to think about it. And I'm glad that you're part of it. I'm glad that recruiting is niching down.
00:32:35 Kristin Demoranville
True, because that's so special cause you can't just can't just throw bodies at this. It's not going to work. We need. I mean, you can do that in IT. That's fine. I mean, back in the day, you really couldn't, though in IT way back in the day. Yeah, it was super specialized. But now, you know, with AI and everything being automated, probably can roll bodies and it's OK.
00:32:55 Kristin Demoranville
It's such an interesting and special world, so I'm so glad you're here. And I'm glad that we've.
00:33:00 Kristin Demoranville
I've always had a good time talking to you in general, and I'll have to find some topics for you. Definitely. That's some tapas.
00:33:03 Nathaniel Smith
Yeah, absolutely. Please do. No, but thank you. It's been, yeah, it's it's been great and it's been great. It was great to meet you in person. And yeah, I mean, it fell over here. So we were talking about a certain pirate and his family device. It wasn't the conversation.
00:33:16 Kristin Demoranville
Medical issues.
00:33:19 Nathaniel Smith
That I I.
00:33:19 Nathaniel Smith
Thought I was gonna be having straight off the bat in Tampa.
00:33:22 Kristin Demoranville
I feel like most people say that to me. Unfortunate.
00:33:25 Kristin Demoranville
No, but I what I think it's great is like the fact that we connected right away too, partly because I have an affinity for the UK as no one surprised and but you know we have connections in places we didn't expect, which I love that I love that the world is so interconnected like that.
00:33:40 Kristin Demoranville
So cool. Yeah. Yeah, it is so cool. And I also love that, you know, you got a chance to meet all the cool people that I enjoy being around.
00:33:47 Kristin Demoranville
And and more into that matter. So I really. I'm really glad that you're here and I'm glad that we're all on the same mission together, but this has been awesome and all of your information is going to be in to showing us everybody can find and reach out to you and I'm sure going to get 1000 DM's cause good luck. But yeah, any of your recruiting needs and things like that. Also, you're just fun to talk to. So I mean, please reach out.
00:34:07
Ah.
00:34:07 Kristin Demoranville
You know that.
00:34:08 Kristin Demoranville
You know, people don't have to be afraid to talk to recruiters. You're not scary people. You're.
00:34:12 Kristin Demoranville
Just human beings.
00:34:13 Nathaniel Smith
At the end of the day, no. I've seen that, and I I'd encourage anyone to actually just, just just get in touch and it it doesn't, you don't necessarily have to be immediately looking for work, but sometimes it's good just to get a perspective on what's happening in the market. And I'm more than happy to have that conversation with anyone and.
00:34:30 Nathaniel Smith
Also the the, the the people that are kind of newer to the industry and then want some advice on like which way to go and and routes into OT like happy to provide advice and still outside of what Mike Holcomb shares. Yeah, he's a great source for anyone.
00:34:47 Nathaniel Smith
Anyone in?
00:34:48 Nathaniel Smith
OT full stop nothing.
00:34:49 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah. Well, he's been a.
00:34:50 Kristin Demoranville
Guest on this show so.
00:34:54 Kristin Demoranville
Mike is Mike is amazing. He gives so much to the community and asks for nothing back and he's such a great guy anyways. This is awesome. Thank you so.
00:35:03 Kristin Demoranville
Much and thank you.
00:35:05 Kristin Demoranville
Is what I'll.
00:35:05 Kristin Demoranville
Say.
00:35:13 Kristin Demoranville
That's a wrap on today's episode. Big thanks and Nathaniel for his conversation and also to all of you for tuning in. If you left with your herd, do me a favor please. And like, comment and share.
00:35:25 Kristin Demoranville
You know the drill and helps people find the show, and it tells the algorithm overlords that this stuff actually does matter because it really does.
00:35:34 Kristin Demoranville
Until next time, stay safe. Stay curious and we'll see you on the next one.
00:35:39 Kristin Demoranville
Bye for now.
