Ep. 025 - Cyber Resilience Reimagined: Andrew Rose and Dr. Darin Detwiler (Part 2)
In the final episode of 2024 and Part 2 of this series, host Kristin Demoranville continues her compelling conversation with two influential experts: Andrew Rose, an AgFuturist, and Dr. Darin Detwiler, a renowned food safety advocate and educator.
Andrew shares his perspective on the challenges of balancing innovation and resilience in the food and agriculture sector. He emphasizes the importance of analog systems and legacy knowledge in a world increasingly dependent on digital solutions. He offers a compelling view of how businesses can build continuity and prepare for unexpected disruptions.
Dr. Detwiler brings a global lens to the table, discussing the vulnerabilities in our food supply and how cybersecurity must evolve to meet the challenges of an interconnected world. From regulatory gaps to the role of collective courage, his insights highlight the urgent need for action to ensure the safety and security of what sustains us all.
This episode powerfully concludes our first season, offering a blend of realism, hope, and practical wisdom. Join us as we close out the year with this meaningful conclusion to Season One.
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Episode Key Highlights
(0:00:19) - Season 1 Finale Introduction
(0:00:24) - Recap of Part 1 and What to Expect in Part 2
(0:00:38) - Automation Vulnerabilities in Food Systems
(0:01:13) - Cyber Threats and Raw Milk Concerns
(0:03:32) - Avian Influenza Risks in Dairy Supply Chains
(0:06:01) - Analog Systems and Legacy Knowledge for Resilience
(0:07:14) - The Importance of Business Continuity Planning
(0:14:25) - Global Collaboration for Food System Security
(0:15:17) - Accountability in Food Cybersecurity
(0:19:26) - Cybersecurity's Role in Cross-Border Food Trade
(0:28:20) - Consumer Awareness and Food Safety Education
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Cyberbiosecurity Summit
February 25-26, Laurel, Maryland:
https://www.cyberbiosecuritysummit.org/
Sumitt to a proposal to speak here:
https://www.cyberbiosecuritysummit.org/sessions
_______________________________________________
BSides ICS/OT Conference 🎉🌟
Feb. 10, 2025, in Tampa, Florida 🌴 (the day before S4x25 Conference)
Call for Papers is OPEN till 12/31/24!
Registration is OPEN: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/bsides-icsot-tickets-1078099778459
General Admission is $30, and Student/Veteran is $20!
Questions or Need more information email: info@bsidesics.org
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Listen to full episode :
Episode Guide:
(0:00:19) - Welcome to the Season 1 Finale
(0:00:24) - Part 1 Recap and Part 2 Focus
(0:00:38) - How Automation Increases Fragility in Food Systems
(0:01:13) - Information Warfare in Food and Agriculture
(0:03:32) - Avian Influenza and Emerging Threats
(0:06:01) - Relying on Analog Systems for Crisis Preparedness
(0:07:14) - Building a Resilient Business Continuity Plan
(0:14:25) - International Cooperation in Food Safety and Cybersecurity
(0:15:17) - Holding Companies Accountable for Food Safety
(0:19:26) - Cybersecurity Standards for Global Food Trade
(0:28:20) - Encouraging Consumer Advocacy and Awareness
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00:00:19 Kristin Demoranville
Welcome to the Season 1 finale of the Bites and Bites Podcast.
00:00:22 Kristin Demoranville
I'm your host, Kristin Demoranville.
00:00:24 Kristin Demoranville
This is Part 2 of a series featuring Andrew Rose and Doctor Darren Dettweller, and the final episode of 2024. If you haven't missed it to Part 1 yet, I would encourage you to do so in this episode.
00:00:35 Kristin Demoranville
Continue my conversations with both Andrew and.
00:00:38 Kristin Demoranville
Andrew and I discuss how over reliance on automation can make food systems vulnerable.
00:00:43 Kristin Demoranville
Why preserving legacy knowledge and analog systems is crucial for resilience later. Doctor Darren Getweiler shares his thoughts on the global challenges of food safety, the need for cooperation, and the courage it takes to prioritize security.
00:00:56 Kristin Demoranville
Stay tuned is impactful conclusion to season 1.
00:01:07
00:01:10 Andrew Rose
Hey Kristin, I want.
00:01:11 Andrew Rose
Come back to the raw milk.
00:01:13 Andrew Rose
I know we we just blushed upon it or touched upon it earlier, but you know, with cyber threats, we also have to think about information warfare as obviously we discussed sabotage and espionage.
00:01:23 Andrew Rose
A lot of layers in these.
00:01:26 Andrew Rose
Offenses, offensive attacks. Our our adversaries are using.
00:01:27
00:01:29 Andrew Rose
Against us and the the use of raw milk is one that certainly concerns me from a health standpoint. Certainly if you've been raised on a dairy farm since you're kid and your body is exposed to raw milk, you've built a certain microbiome up in your gut that can.
00:01:45 Andrew Rose
Digest this or or tolerate anything and that shouldn't be in there. If you're drinking raw milk for.
00:01:51 Andrew Rose
Time it is like your entire microbes in your stomach are.
00:01:55 Andrew Rose
Everything is gone and that's why a lot of folks have that gastronomical distress.
00:02:00 Andrew Rose
Just it's a completely.
00:02:02 Andrew Rose
Alien thing that's coming into their system with the avian influenza getting into the dairy supply chain. As we discussed before, I think on a prior podcast, this avian fluenza will double in size every 12 to 15 minutes from raw milk, so.
00:02:18 Andrew Rose
The fact that people are even being encouraged to drink raw milk with this unknown novel virus entering into our society terrifies me and I think our adversaries do recognize that. And that's why we're seeing a lot of different channels, both on the left and the right.
00:02:30 Andrew Rose
Pushing the consumption of raw milk, pushing raw milk to be involved in our communities, and I think we need to view that for what it is.
00:02:37 Andrew Rose
Warfare.
00:02:37 Andrew Rose
It is another level of a cyber attack and who knows if that will go hand in glove to anything that's related to that adjacent to it or or not.
00:02:45 Andrew Rose
I think that your loyal listeners out there need to be wary if they do see something about consuming wrong milk and.
00:02:52 Andrew Rose
Stop and ask themselves, is this real? You know what?
00:02:55 Andrew Rose
Risk. Am I introducing myself to?
00:02:58 Andrew Rose
It's well known that.
00:02:59 Andrew Rose
The bird flu first hit in.
00:03:00 Andrew Rose
Texas, one of the first indicators that something was wrong, was all the animals and the farm were dying.
00:03:06 Andrew Rose
Barn cats.
00:03:07 Andrew Rose
The barn Dogs died, the birds died.
00:03:07
Yeah.
00:03:09 Andrew Rose
That was the thing that tipped folks off that there was something was a miss there.
00:03:14 Andrew Rose
And now obviously it's turning up in many wastewater treatment plants across the.
00:03:18 Andrew Rose
We have this monitoring system, so it's in is somehow it's in the population, we just don't know.
00:03:22 Andrew Rose
Where it is, and with the prevalence level is. But I appreciate you allowing us to talk about raw milk on this platform.
00:03:30 Kristin Demoranville
It's such a tough conversation cause.
00:03:32 Kristin Demoranville
You know, I I've known people that that swear by it, that grow up with it, that live with it.
00:03:37 Kristin Demoranville
Personally adjusted.
00:03:39 Kristin Demoranville
I'm sure you have as well at some point, Andrew. We've both had it.
00:03:42 Kristin Demoranville
You're.
00:03:42 Kristin Demoranville
There's so much around it and also I don't think people understand where they can and.
00:03:46 Kristin Demoranville
Not get.
00:03:47 Kristin Demoranville
You can only buy it in the state.
00:03:48 Kristin Demoranville
Allows.
00:03:49 Kristin Demoranville
You can't sell it outside. That state is only allowed to be purchased inside that state and.
00:03:54 Kristin Demoranville
Lot of.
00:03:54 Kristin Demoranville
This milk is going other places that it shouldn't be going, and that's super concerning.
00:03:59 Kristin Demoranville
Also, the avian flu is a big concern.
00:04:02 Kristin Demoranville
Mean that is.
00:04:03 Kristin Demoranville
Whole.
00:04:03 Kristin Demoranville
Have a whole episode just on that, because that's a huge concern. Yes, absolutely.
00:04:07 Andrew Rose
Yeah, and.
00:04:09 Andrew Rose
And they call it highly pathogenic.
00:04:11 Andrew Rose
Avian influenza highly pathogenic is actually a scientific term.
00:04:15 Andrew Rose
Mortality rate greater than 70%, so you know it's it's a species crossover that it won't take long. And I just hope everyone loyal listeners out there have gotten their vaccines now if they believe in vaccines and if you haven't, you know stock up on chicken stock.
00:04:30 Andrew Rose
Garlic water or something. Whatever it is that we drink, we don't take vaccines.
00:04:34 Andrew Rose
So I know there was another question that you were going to ask me and I've completely forgotten what it is. Kristen, what was that?
00:04:39 Kristin Demoranville
No, that's.
00:04:40 Kristin Demoranville
So let's talk about as a swing out from this. What advice could you give to companies or individuals in the food sector about building resilience beyond basic cybersecurity measures and any other fun things you want to toss into that, Andrew?
00:04:54 Andrew Rose
Sure. Well, I'm going to give a bit of a warning here, as your Lord listeners know, I tend to go to the dark side on.
00:05:01 Andrew Rose
There, back in. I don't remember when it was 2020 tens. There was a movie called Wally and it was about a little robot that cleaned the planet.
00:05:09 Andrew Rose
Was nothing left.
00:05:11 Andrew Rose
Because as a species, we kept on wanting.
00:05:13 Andrew Rose
Get more and more.
00:05:14 Andrew Rose
We want to do less and less work.
00:05:15 Andrew Rose
Want to have?
00:05:16 Andrew Rose
And more comforts. And I feel in a lot of ways.
00:05:18 Andrew Rose
Society is moving towards that goal.
00:05:20 Andrew Rose
Always ask people what is this progress towards and what is the way?
00:05:23 Andrew Rose
And is that lift worth what we're?
00:05:26 Andrew Rose
I think a lot of times in the food, food basically in industry today the the Sprint is towards efficiency, scrums, agile, all these things I call it chasing nines. Once you get to 99.9% you can stop.
00:05:39 Andrew Rose
That's pretty darn good. But we're spending an inordinate amount of energy to get this other nines in there doing. So we're layering all.
00:05:44 Andrew Rose
On top of.
00:05:45 Andrew Rose
Each other to achieve those efficiencies and anytime even layer of technology and that's one more layer that can collapse and bring the entire thing down. You know it's it's obvious that you know agile is something to aspire to, but the more agile you become the more fragile you.
00:05:59 Andrew Rose
Because you put all these systems in there.
00:06:01 Andrew Rose
I think you know, I may have said this earlier, but from a resiliency standpoint, I look to things in a more analog.
00:06:06 Andrew Rose
Than they are digital.
00:06:07 Andrew Rose
What are?
00:06:08 Andrew Rose
Ways that we can operate in a schema where we might not have consistent electricity. We might not have consistent Internet.
00:06:15 Andrew Rose
Your business operate in such a format.
00:06:18 Andrew Rose
Many of our friends and agriculture community to tell you, heck yeah, you know the old tractor Outback will fire that puppy up and you know, might not be as accurate as our GPS LIDAR systems, but we'll still get, we'll still get crops in the ground at some point.
00:06:31 Andrew Rose
You know, it might be a little bit of a contrarian point of view as well as I know everyone out there pushes automation and robots and.
00:06:37 Andrew Rose
I think they're fascinating and I love them.
00:06:38 Andrew Rose
Love the science.
00:06:39 Andrew Rose
Attack. But if I'm looking at it from a risk management standpoint, I'm thinking, OK.
00:06:43 Andrew Rose
What is some way that someone with malicious intent can get in here and mess up whether disabling it miscalibrating it?
00:06:51 Andrew Rose
A. There's a plethora of things that adversaries can do to.
00:06:55 Andrew Rose
Manipulate these things and you know, case in point was when the solar flares.
00:07:00 Andrew Rose
Came through the northern part of our country in southern.
00:07:03 Andrew Rose
Earlier this.
00:07:04 Andrew Rose
It's knocked out many of the tractors, GPS systems and they were able to plant the time of period they wanted to plant in.
00:07:10 Andrew Rose
There's.
00:07:10 Andrew Rose
Wind is always narrow to begin with, and any kind of disruption.
00:07:14 Andrew Rose
And the planting season means you've got an entire year. You've got to wait for the next.
00:07:18 Andrew Rose
To roll around.
00:07:19 Kristin Demoranville
I think that's such a good point, Andrew, because a lot of the things that I see when I go into different sites and when I talk to different businesses is a lack of redundancy and the ability to be analog if they need.
00:07:31 Kristin Demoranville
Be.
00:07:31 Kristin Demoranville
Or have the leg.
00:07:33 Kristin Demoranville
Knowledge captured in a business continuity plan or disaster recovery. In order to do that, I think everybody's so excited about digital transformation.
00:07:40 Kristin Demoranville
Which is.
00:07:41 Kristin Demoranville
I'm. I'm here for it.
00:07:42 Kristin Demoranville
Everybody else is here for it, for the most part, but we need to have that risk management strategy that includes that type of action as well.
00:07:51 Kristin Demoranville
And as we saw the GPS that was really key, they had to be.
00:07:55 Kristin Demoranville
To.
00:07:55 Kristin Demoranville
To use machines without having the guidance, which is unfortunate, but at least they still got it planted right and the.
00:08:01 Kristin Demoranville
Still happened.
00:08:02 Andrew Rose
I think you also touched on important part there.
00:08:04 Andrew Rose
That legacy, that institutional knowledge.
00:08:06 Andrew Rose
Holds that.
00:08:08 Andrew Rose
Where is that repository.
00:08:09 Andrew Rose
Have you done a business continuity?
00:08:12 Andrew Rose
A tabletop or field exercise to see what if what if this went?
00:08:16 Andrew Rose
Do you still have the means, whether they're paper, pen or whiteboard to do what needs to get done for that period of time?
00:08:23 Andrew Rose
That you don't have access to your technology.
00:08:26 Andrew Rose
But yeah, I think.
00:08:27 Andrew Rose
Need to weigh heavily into that as.
00:08:29 Andrew Rose
It's.
00:08:30 Andrew Rose
This a contrary way of thinking, but you know what?
00:08:33 Andrew Rose
What if it's not?
00:08:34 Andrew Rose
And I think that what if gets bigger and bigger every day?
00:08:36 Kristin Demoranville
I think anybody who's listening, who's experienced ERP or some type of upgrade or anything like that, when your ERP system goes down, you're pretty much dead in the water.
00:08:46 Kristin Demoranville
How do you deal with that?
00:08:48 Kristin Demoranville
Go back to paper.
00:08:49 Kristin Demoranville
Are you prepared to go back to paper?
00:08:51 Kristin Demoranville
I and I don't know why.
00:08:53 Kristin Demoranville
Well, I guess I could speculate why people have.
00:08:55 Kristin Demoranville
With.
00:08:55 Kristin Demoranville
And Andrew, I'm sure you'll agree with me that a lot of it comes back to, well, if we have to roll the way back to paper, what was the point of spending that money in the first place?
00:09:02 Kristin Demoranville
Number.
00:09:03 Kristin Demoranville
#2 the shame of dealing with.
00:09:05 Kristin Demoranville
The shame of dealing with we don't have. We're not prepared.
00:09:08 Kristin Demoranville
We have to roll back to.
00:09:09 Kristin Demoranville
What if this gets to our shareholders like?
00:09:12 Kristin Demoranville
Things. Who cares?
00:09:13 Kristin Demoranville
We gotta get it done so people don't get hurt. First of all, on the job.
00:09:17 Kristin Demoranville
Not get hurt with product whenever that product.
00:09:20 Kristin Demoranville
Consume or inject.
00:09:20 Kristin Demoranville
I think we have to change the mindset and not make.
00:09:24 Kristin Demoranville
Such a big deal.
00:09:25 Kristin Demoranville
Okay this.
00:09:25 Kristin Demoranville
We're rolling it back, you know. No big deal at all. It's.
00:09:29 Kristin Demoranville
Sure, you might have to push a cart or you know, might have to like have the tractor hooked up to an animal. Who knows.
00:09:35 Kristin Demoranville
To get that kind of crazy.
00:09:36 Kristin Demoranville
It's still doable.
00:09:38 Kristin Demoranville
And that's the important part is to continue.
00:09:40 Kristin Demoranville
To do the job. It's hard. Legacy is a different, a different conversation.
00:09:45 Kristin Demoranville
I love with legacy people. I know you do too.
00:09:47 Kristin Demoranville
We both love to gap to them because we learned so much about the process and what they love about their jobs that I can't imagine not including them in a risk strategy because they are one of the most important components people in process.
00:10:00 Andrew Rose
Yeah, that brings up another point.
00:10:02 Andrew Rose
Conversation earlier today is who.
00:10:04 Andrew Rose
Who was left out of the C-Suite or who was left out of these?
00:10:08 Andrew Rose
That should have been there in the most critical point in time. We were talking about cold controlled environment, how the grower was never in the C-Suite and was never an agricultural company, was always a tech company going back to legacy people.
00:10:19 Andrew Rose
I I was part of a very large tabletop two years ago in a very important sector, and that was one of the findings was if this went down, we need to go back to paper. But who knows how to use it.
00:10:30 Andrew Rose
Need to capture those legacy.
00:10:32 Andrew Rose
So PS that we need to have in place.
00:10:34 Andrew Rose
Again, good listeners out.
00:10:36 Andrew Rose
This is something you want to take back to your company saying.
00:10:38 Andrew Rose
I would put it on piece of.
00:10:40 Andrew Rose
You know, spell it out here step by step. If this goes down, here's how we manage this.
00:10:44 Andrew Rose
If we if we lose GPS, here's where.
00:10:46 Andrew Rose
The paper maps are.
00:10:47 Andrew Rose
And here's the training module for the people under 30 on how to use a hyper map.
00:10:51 Kristin Demoranville
It's so true, and even goes back to testing.
00:10:53 Kristin Demoranville
Can you manually test without having to run it through a machine you know there are ways to do that in the quality lab.
00:10:59 Kristin Demoranville
Much smarter people than me can talk about that.
00:11:01 Kristin Demoranville
But that's another.
00:11:02 Kristin Demoranville
You know, how do we deal with?
00:11:04 Kristin Demoranville
With that, since we kind of had a bit of gloom and doom here, Andrew, I want to.
00:11:08 Kristin Demoranville
About a little bit of hope.
00:11:09 Kristin Demoranville
What are you hopeful for moving?
00:11:11 Kristin Demoranville
I know we're coming towards the end of the year and I know.
00:11:13 Kristin Demoranville
Conference I felt was really.
00:11:16 Kristin Demoranville
I felt like it was a lot of positivity around the conference that we're at together.
00:11:19 Kristin Demoranville
The panel what are your thoughts?
00:11:21 Andrew Rose
Well, and again, I'm kind of a contrarian here and I also do play the hand that I'm dealt. One of the things I am hopeful about is incoming.
00:11:29 Andrew Rose
Here and the attention they're going to give to cyber security, to agriculture, to that critical piece of our infrastructure, which I don't think has quite gotten the attention under the current administration that, that it deserves.
00:11:41 Andrew Rose
I am very hopeful for my friends in the agriculture community for for our citizens here.
00:11:48 Andrew Rose
That this this is going to be a good time. I mean we still don't know who all the cards are going to be and then where they're going to be.
00:11:54 Andrew Rose
But if I, if I understand the sentiments properly, it's it's going to be.
00:11:57 Andrew Rose
For us so.
00:11:59 Andrew Rose
I'm hopeful there and I also know that we can out produce anyone on the planet and I know we produce more than we.
00:12:05 Andrew Rose
We have water moats to our East and West and friendly store north and to the South. We're still questionable, but at least it's fairly impenetrable coming up that way.
00:12:13 Andrew Rose
So you know, I'm hopeful for the United States.
00:12:15 Andrew Rose
Hopeful for our citizens hopeful for our farmers.
00:12:19 Andrew Rose
That.
00:12:21 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah. And you know, we do contribute to the global overall economy as well as the environment.
00:12:26 Kristin Demoranville
Hopefully we can get some.
00:12:27 Kristin Demoranville
In order, and certainly in the country.
00:12:29 Kristin Demoranville
Butter tackling some of those food waste and you know the nutritional values of food, and it's going to be interesting.
00:12:36 Kristin Demoranville
I'm definitely not on baited breath, but I'm interested to see what's going to happen and hopefully we can get you.
00:12:41 Kristin Demoranville
Farmers, the.
00:12:42 Kristin Demoranville
Support they need to do the jobs that they do that help sustain us in our society.
00:12:47 Kristin Demoranville
The most important thing I think overall.
00:12:49 Kristin Demoranville
Regardless of.
00:12:51 Kristin Demoranville
Part of it you sit on other security or whether it's risk management or any.
00:12:55 Kristin Demoranville
That appreciate all that.
00:12:55 Andrew Rose
Well, you know, I did end my session in.
00:12:59 Andrew Rose
Just letting people know what it meant to be a farmer, and I think it's important for your listeners to hear that as well.
00:13:05 Andrew Rose
'S one of those people that gets paid once a year, pretty much everything they own is collateral for that paid.
00:13:10 Andrew Rose
Check and if anything happens during that year, they lose it.
00:13:13 Andrew Rose
So understand the risk they take and what they do and also understand the stress they're under right now is is the amplification of magnification stress right now is horrible.
00:13:23 Andrew Rose
The old phrase was thank a farmer, I said.
00:13:25 Andrew Rose
A farmer, a.
00:13:26 Andrew Rose
Really thank them for what they're doing and how they're feeding us it.
00:13:28 Andrew Rose
Would mean the world.
00:13:29 Andrew Rose
Them and just to let you know.
00:13:31 Andrew Rose
A few friendly voices out there.
00:13:33 Andrew Rose
That gather backs covered to another that's meaningful to.
00:13:35 Andrew Rose
As well.
00:13:36 Kristin Demoranville
Just remember, when you go to the grocery store that somebody help get that food there, whether it's you're picking up tomatoes or you're picking up beef or chicken or whatever it is or eggs. Just remember that somebody at hand and that actually many somebody's had a hand.
00:13:44
As rags.
00:13:48 Kristin Demoranville
That be grateful because that's what they want and that's what they deserve as well, because they work really hard, just like everybody else who's listening on this.
00:13:55 Kristin Demoranville
You so much for being here as always.
00:13:57 Kristin Demoranville
And I'm sure we'll be seeing you soon.
00:13:59 Andrew Rose
Indeed. Well, and thank you as well for allowing me to have this platform to spread the word. As I said, the more awareness is out there about the plight of the farmers and the risk they're under, the better it is.
00:14:08 Andrew Rose
Thank you very much, Kristen as well.
00:14:20 Kristin Demoranville
We're going to take a short break here as we wrap up the year and season 1 of the bites and Vice podcast.
00:14:25 Kristin Demoranville
Want to thank all of you.
00:14:26 Kristin Demoranville
Our listeners, subscribers, family, friends and supporters for making this journey so rewarding.
00:14:32 Kristin Demoranville
Season 2 is going to be even bigger with fantastic guests, exciting topics and maybe even a few surprises.
00:14:38 Kristin Demoranville
Thank you for being part of this community and.
00:14:40 Kristin Demoranville
Curious about the world of Food and Agriculture?
00:14:43 Kristin Demoranville
New.
00:14:43 Kristin Demoranville
And now back to the show.
00:14:52
00:14:52 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I would imagine that a lot of the momentum that we'll see in terms of cybersecurity in the food sector.
00:15:00 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Will most likely be focused around the major retailers, the the, the multi state and regional retailers that the bigger names and also the food distribution systems, the US Foods, the Cisco, the Aromark. When you look at the idea of.
00:15:17 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You can't have a million points of of security and expect them all to be the same, but if you look at the ones.
00:15:24 Dr. Darin Detwiler
But anyone was a.
00:15:25 Dr. Darin Detwiler
But the most overlap I guess if you will is going to be within our major food distribution systems and our major food retail.
00:15:32 Dr. Darin Detwiler
What we're going to most likely see a lot of the development and then from there you'll have the second and third level.
00:15:41 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Tiers start to kind of follow suit because there has to be some, some, some universality, right?
00:15:47 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Can't all have different?
00:15:48 Dr. Darin Detwiler
We saw so many different service.
00:15:51 Dr. Darin Detwiler
It's not going to really benefit us as every single person has their own system.
00:15:55 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Or, you know, we have if we have 45 different systems.
00:16:00 Dr. Darin Detwiler
It's going to be a problem where that doesn't end up working, because again, we're we're we're basing our strength on them.
00:16:07 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Do I think that one solution is the answer or even?
00:16:10 Dr. Darin Detwiler
No, but there's got to be a way for all these solutions to somehow work together.
00:16:16 Dr. Darin Detwiler
When it comes to accountability, there's going to be that ask.
00:16:20 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That there's going to be that pressure to have some sense of how do we kind of, you know, how do we watch the Watchmen, you know, kind of a A.
00:16:28 Dr. Darin Detwiler
So again, I think what we've seen in the past when it comes to digital solutions, not within cyber security, but digital solutions, when it comes to accountability and traceability and transparency, you see the biggest movement from the major retail major.
00:16:47 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Connecting suits system.
00:16:49 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Before you necessarily see all the individual suppliers, if you.
00:16:54 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I think that's a trend we'll seeing, but I think that you know, we'll have to reevaluate that because you know again, it's like cutting off the head of all.
00:17:04 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The snakes, if you will.
00:17:07 Dr. Darin Detwiler
There'll be a new approach in terms of cybersecurity.
00:17:09 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And I do believe that.
00:17:11 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I can't remember Kristen. If it was you or Andrew who said it that that kind of vulnerability of an attack even after.
00:17:17 Dr. Darin Detwiler
11 the World Health Organization came out and said that it's far easier to attack a country and have political or economic disruption by attacking their food supply.
00:17:27 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Don't have to get into nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare, just attack their food supply. Whatever you said and.
00:17:34 Dr. Darin Detwiler
We can't take for granted that our existing.
00:17:37 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Foundation in terms of food security, if you will is strong enough for the next generation of attacks. That again, I don't think that whether it's already happened or it's three or five years away.
00:17:50 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know.
00:17:51 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Do you define that that, that quote UN quote new?
00:17:54 Dr. Darin Detwiler
911 moment.
00:17:55 Kristin Demoranville
I think that you made some really good points there and I was.
00:17:57 Kristin Demoranville
About.
00:17:58 Kristin Demoranville
Are we actually protecting our food supply if we can't even regulate livestock fields being next to lettuce fields?
00:18:04 Kristin Demoranville
You know, to me that's this is we know what the problem is.
00:18:08 Kristin Demoranville
Aren't we fixing?
00:18:09 Kristin Demoranville
We should have a certain amount of mileage that has to be away from each field, from the livestock pens.
00:18:15 Kristin Demoranville
So we don't have a coli running in.
00:18:16 Kristin Demoranville
To our lettuce.
00:18:18 Kristin Demoranville
Or Greens, if you greens in general.
00:18:20 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That's the difference between state versus federal regulation, you know, is it possible that California takes a, a, a direction with, with cybersecurity and leads other states?
00:18:31 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Could be, but we're only going to be as strong as our weakest state.
00:18:35 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know, when it comes to food.
00:18:37 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I eat all the food that I eat doesn't come from the state of.
00:18:40 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That's why I said again, we're only as strong as our weakest state or on a global scale.
00:18:46 Dr. Darin Detwiler
We're only as strong as our weakest supplier, exporter and importer of foods.
00:18:53 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Of a.
00:18:53 Dr. Darin Detwiler
So we have to look at this.
00:18:55 Dr. Darin Detwiler
As.
00:18:57 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Clearly it's just a.
00:18:59 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I mean, there's got to be federal activity along with the idea of whether it's a a United Nations or NATO or or whatever there's got to.
00:19:07 Dr. Darin Detwiler
A war.
00:19:08 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Coordinated and collaborative type of approach. If we really, truly want to improve upon this.
00:19:16 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah, I think it's going to take a lot of countries coming.
00:19:20 Kristin Demoranville
I think it's going to take a lot of industry coming together and also, you know, Food and Agriculture connected to the rest of critical infrastructure not.
00:19:26 Kristin Demoranville
Because.
00:19:27 Kristin Demoranville
Supply people food to live but crops like soybean and corn and corn are part of our everyday flow in.
00:19:34 Kristin Demoranville
Lots of things are made from it.
00:19:36 Kristin Demoranville
Biodiesel is a really big property when obviously, and I think people need to start realizing how interconnected and dependent everything is. And once they do that, then like, oh, this is no brainer. We can ship protected the way we should protect it.
00:19:47 Kristin Demoranville
Again, when it comes down to that capitalistic mindset.
00:19:51 Kristin Demoranville
Making money or burning money because we're doing too.
00:19:53 Kristin Demoranville
Other.
00:19:54 Kristin Demoranville
That's what really starts to tick me off, because that put starts putting prices on human lives and we don't want that.
00:20:00 Kristin Demoranville
I don't want that either for sure.
00:20:02 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Well, it's notable that we had this panel in Canada because remember NAFTA.
00:20:02 Kristin Demoranville
Darren, I really thought.
00:20:07 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah.
00:20:08 Dr. Darin Detwiler
North American Free trade agreement.
00:20:11 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The new NAFTA because.
00:20:13 Dr. Darin Detwiler
We didn't work with Canada on this and Canada decides that they're going to have stricter level of cyber security protections for food and the new NAFTA is that they are not going to allow foods from the United States to come into Canada because we don't have the same.
00:20:29 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Level of cyber security resiliency that they have up there. So the best thing they can do is protect.
00:20:35 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Their interest is to ban all free trade across the border from the US into Canada. If someone like that were to happen, you'll see radical change in the United States in terms of now the industry is going to be driving the federal government to step up the game.
00:20:49 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Terms of cybersecurity.
00:20:50 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Security, not so much because of of the needs and interests of the United States, but because of the exclusion from foreign markets that they do not want to.
00:21:02 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Know they they do not want to suffer because of.
00:21:05 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The lack.
00:21:06 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Meaning those needs and obligations.
00:21:08 Kristin Demoranville
I think the supply chain pressure is a good thing in general because in terms of us with other nations and nations with us, we should be signing third party agreements, if you will, and Canada is technically a common through the.
00:21:21 Kristin Demoranville
Right, So what if the UK was really crazy?
00:21:25 Kristin Demoranville
Stringent restrictions in Canada has to, you know, adjust well, what happens with other like EU.
00:21:30 Kristin Demoranville
You know, we're not going to work with you unless you have a cybersecurity posture, but that's that could happen, considering they have already have GDP R, they have all these other things in place and they actually taking their critical infrastructure extremely seriously.
00:21:42 Kristin Demoranville
And again.
00:21:42 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I think.
00:21:42 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Important to note that Gdprs because I don't want to get into the specifics of the GDPR is beyond the fact that the general data protection regulations that came out of that regul.
00:21:54 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That's not just within a geographic limitation.
00:21:57 Dr. Darin Detwiler
To all their.
00:21:59 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That is the protection of their information, regardless of where those citizens are.
00:22:03 Dr. Darin Detwiler
This world.
00:22:04 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And imagine cybersecurity with their food not being limited to anyone, state or anyone country.
00:22:10 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Idea of this being a consumer, a citizen.
00:22:14 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know, attached type of a scenario where now we really have.
00:22:19 Dr. Darin Detwiler
To think about the implications of.
00:22:21 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Cross-border alignment.
00:22:25 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And you know, comparisons of cybersecurity.
00:22:27 Kristin Demoranville
I also too like rules of engagement.
00:22:30 Kristin Demoranville
So I mean, you cannot attack food in the water of a country if you do that.
00:22:34 Kristin Demoranville
This is a you.
00:22:34 Kristin Demoranville
Know this is what's gonna happen.
00:22:35 Kristin Demoranville
I realize.
00:22:36 Kristin Demoranville
Just probably all boxed at them like. Yeah, good luck with the adversaries. But you know, getting to.
00:22:40 Kristin Demoranville
But it strengthens it all legal sense, right? 'cause. Then it gives more more predication to what we need to deal with aggression needs.
00:22:47 Kristin Demoranville
That it's a world global citizen problem, and I think consumers are really going to come on board with this, especially when it comes to privacy and data tracking. And food traceability is going to open up that hub hard.
00:22:59 Kristin Demoranville
Surprised companies haven't started jumping all over that because data is fine and we can run the marketing machine heavier, right?
00:23:04 Kristin Demoranville
I don't think people realize how much data is being collected.
00:23:08 Kristin Demoranville
When you walk into McDonald's, what you order, what your favorite food is, what you're looking at online, and then you get targeted.
00:23:14 Kristin Demoranville
I can't even tell you how many like protein bars target me.
00:23:17 Kristin Demoranville
It's crazy. Like I think I bought maybe one once offline and that was it.
00:23:22 Kristin Demoranville
I've also my feeds full of protein bars, which they're not all created equal.
00:23:25 Kristin Demoranville
Me. Just tell you.
00:23:27 Kristin Demoranville
So I think that people need to start paying attention to that because cybersecurity is going to be important to them because that's more data points for you, you know, data to be breached could put you at.
00:23:38 Kristin Demoranville
For.
00:23:38 Kristin Demoranville
Lot of.
00:23:39 Kristin Demoranville
Your taxes could be.
00:23:40 Kristin Demoranville
You can miss your return. I mean, there's a lot of scary tactics that happen not only having your identity stolen, which is terrifying, but you could also.
00:23:48 Kristin Demoranville
You know, scammed out of a lot of money.
00:23:51 Kristin Demoranville
It be a lot of different things, so I think consumers need to pay attention until they have to pay attention and I don't really want it to be a catastrophic event for them to pay attention.
00:24:05 Kristin Demoranville
You can announcement everyone if you're interested in ICS OT Cyber security, whether you're a student, an industry newcomer, or a seasoned pro.
00:24:14 Kristin Demoranville
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00:24:16 Kristin Demoranville
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00:24:17 Kristin Demoranville
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00:24:29 Kristin Demoranville
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00:24:40 Kristin Demoranville
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00:24:44 Kristin Demoranville
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00:24:46 Kristin Demoranville
Visit bsidesics.org for tickets, speaking opportunities and.
00:24:51 Kristin Demoranville
Also, if you are planning on attending S4 in Tampa, it's the day before.
00:24:56 Kristin Demoranville
Check out the website.
00:24:57 Kristin Demoranville
And hopefully I'll see you there.
00:25:05
00:25:08 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Well, when I see us as being, you know, that whole idea of digital natives versus digital immigrants, I see us as being, you know, immigrants into this world of, of cybersecurity and cybersecurity resilience.
00:25:19 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That there will be a future generation that they were literally born into.
00:25:23 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And when we were already dealing with this kind of things and and you know to to them, you know?
00:25:29 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Hey I see this within food.
00:25:31 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I mean, there's people I talk with that are so young that they can't believe there's a time where we didn't have plastic seals on containers of yogurt or or cottage cheese or things like that.
00:25:41 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And it's like, well, of course we have this level of security on things I.
00:25:44 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Imagine a world where you.
00:25:46 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You people could just open it at the grocery store and say.
00:25:50 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Yeah, you know, you know, remember, like, the ice cream liquor, you know, not to have the people that open the container of ice cream. And we never thought about those things. But, you know, we we.
00:26:00 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Is there a different society now with this and we have to think differently and I love how you're talking about the idea of, you know, even education has to be different.
00:26:08 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Safety and cybersecurity and different informations and it's kind of it.
00:26:12 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Of.
00:26:13 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I have to admit it makes me rethink.
00:26:15 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Sesame Street and CS for.
00:26:17 Dr. Darin Detwiler
It's a different kind of cookies that we have to maybe talk about to our toddlers.
00:26:21 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah. And I think people like to talk to me about.
00:26:25 Kristin Demoranville
Sure they do this year.
00:26:25 Kristin Demoranville
Darn. Even when you're talking about food safety.
00:26:28 Kristin Demoranville
They talk about food and the nostalgia of food, and it's not the same as it was when.
00:26:31 Kristin Demoranville
Were younger.
00:26:32 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah, I know it's.
00:26:34 Kristin Demoranville
It's not even owned by the same time, it probably owned when you were a kid, you know, the recipes change their secret and safe, and sometimes they don't get bought when.
00:26:41 Kristin Demoranville
Company.
00:26:42 Kristin Demoranville
It's a lot of things and.
00:26:44 Kristin Demoranville
Grocery shopping takes so much longer now because you have to stand there and read every package because you just don't know what you don't know.
00:26:51 Kristin Demoranville
And I and I kind of feel like that weirdo sometimes when I'm standing there and I'm like, I don't know what this ingredient is.
00:26:56 Kristin Demoranville
Then you have to sit there and Google it.
00:26:58 Kristin Demoranville
Then you're like what?
00:26:59 Kristin Demoranville
Preservative. OK, like what is this for?
00:27:03 Kristin Demoranville
But it wasn't until I spent time in a quality.
00:27:06 Kristin Demoranville
But I started to understand what preservatives were and why they were there because they test the shelf life and I watched frosting being tested and someone was covered in mold.
00:27:15 Kristin Demoranville
Not going to.
00:27:15 Kristin Demoranville
And I kept saying why is she throwing that out there? Like, no, we have to test it all the way through to see when it really goes bad.
00:27:20 Kristin Demoranville
I'm like, but it's bad right now.
00:27:21 Kristin Demoranville
He said people don't know.
00:27:24 Kristin Demoranville
I don't know.
00:27:25 Kristin Demoranville
I had a guess that was on recently talking about carrot juice.
00:27:28 Kristin Demoranville
I had no idea about that whole issue about how carrot juice. You can't leave it out on the counter at Casablan.
00:27:36 Kristin Demoranville
Ca situation. I didn't realize that.
00:27:37 Kristin Demoranville
Why characters became less popular?
00:27:39 Kristin Demoranville
I had no idea this is the problem with our food cycle too, and I know we've spoken about this multiple times.
00:27:45 Kristin Demoranville
Times when something goes wrong with food, people should get off it for a long.
00:27:50 Kristin Demoranville
They won't touch it like spinach. Even the say I look at a bag of spinach and I'm like, I don't know, you know, but even though it's been dealt with, it's still questionable. And I think people.
00:28:01 Kristin Demoranville
Need to do their research. I think you need to look for reputable people and reputable articles and things.
00:28:07 Kristin Demoranville
Things like.
00:28:08 Kristin Demoranville
And I realized that that's kind of counterproductive to the disinformation misinformation that we've been talking about.
00:28:13 Kristin Demoranville
But again, it goes back to that.
00:28:14 Kristin Demoranville
An emotional.
00:28:15 Kristin Demoranville
You need distrust it immediately, so it has to be very much.
00:28:19 Kristin Demoranville
You have to take.
00:28:20 Kristin Demoranville
Out of your food situation for a minute, because food is innately emotional.
00:28:23 Kristin Demoranville
Cultural.
00:28:24 Kristin Demoranville
All these things, but being able to make better choices because.
00:28:28 Kristin Demoranville
So important, and I think that's.
00:28:29 Kristin Demoranville
Why you and I advocate, and we're so heavy into the awareness side and we said even more activism because we want people to know we want people to be able to eat and enjoy their families, enjoy the company that they have around them rather than.
00:28:41 Kristin Demoranville
About if.
00:28:41 Kristin Demoranville
Their lettuce has been contaminated or their onions are contaminated, or if they could eat at a certain restaurant because they just had an episode of whatever broke out.
00:28:48 Kristin Demoranville
Found that really telling when I was watch.
00:28:50 Kristin Demoranville
Maybe a news segments for one of the new stations you did recently on McDonald's.
00:28:54 Kristin Demoranville
Instead, the people keep asking you how do they know if their food is contaminated and you respond with you? Don't.
00:28:59 Kristin Demoranville
And I thought that that was.
00:29:01 Kristin Demoranville
Profound for me, in that moment of well, you're not going to know.
00:29:05 Kristin Demoranville
Like, do you?
00:29:05 Kristin Demoranville
A microscope around with you.
00:29:07 Kristin Demoranville
You know it's.
00:29:08 Kristin Demoranville
Of one of those.
00:29:09 Kristin Demoranville
How are you going to know we have.
00:29:11 Kristin Demoranville
Certain.
00:29:11 Kristin Demoranville
Of trust that needs to be fulfilled and order.
00:29:14 Kristin Demoranville
Pursue our mouth.
00:29:15 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Yeah. You know, there was a there was a.
00:29:16 Kristin Demoranville
Because we're so moved.
00:29:20 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Like back in the 1880s and you know, like, right leading up to Upton Sinclair, the jungle, all the problems that can lead industry, there was a magazine that was really getting critical about food safety. And there was this artwork done about the idea of, you know, how.
00:29:34 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know at home if your food is safe and it shows like this ridiculous microscope and all these you.
00:29:39 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The the the.
00:29:41 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Little beakers and stuff like you would have to be a.
00:29:44 Dr. Darin Detwiler
But then it was like it became. You'd have to be a magician. You.
00:29:49 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And what's crazy is that notion of Oh well, you know, clearly things have progressed since the 1880s.
00:29:55 Dr. Darin Detwiler
No, you still will not.
00:29:57 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Won't know.
00:29:58 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Hey.
00:29:58 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know you can't look at something I had, you know, a food incident where.
00:30:04 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Hamburger was.
00:30:06 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I asked for it to be, you know, well done.
00:30:08 Dr. Darin Detwiler
It was so raw in the middle. It was.
00:30:10 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Was.
00:30:10 Dr. Darin Detwiler
It was undercooked and I asked the person in.
00:30:14 Dr. Darin Detwiler
This is a major chain and the guys like well, you know, we cook like 5.
00:30:17 Dr. Darin Detwiler
100 hamburgers a.
00:30:18 Dr. Darin Detwiler
We can tell like they don't need to use a thermometer or any time you know monitoring equipment or you know any kind.
00:30:25 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Joining equipment you cannot tell.
00:30:28 Dr. Darin Detwiler
There have been tests that show that just looking at it alone, you cannot tell if it has been cooked to a high enough minimum temperature and.
00:30:37 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know, again, even at the home, we can't tell certain.
00:30:41 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That's why we have to shift our language. You know, we say things to our kids like, look both ways before the cross, before we cross the street. We say things.
00:30:48 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Put your seat belt on or, you know, get in the car seat or whatever, right?
00:30:52 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Have to start having conversations with our children about food safety in terms.
00:30:56 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The fact that.
00:30:57 Dr. Darin Detwiler
There are inherent risks, and I think the same thing has to be said about.
00:31:02 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Cybersecurity there are just we're in a world where there are inherent risks.
00:31:08 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And unless you are someone who is growing your carrots and and and, you know, cabbage and and green beans or whatever in your backyard.
00:31:18 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And even then, I can't guarantee you're 100%, you know, free of these these dangers we have so far.
00:31:25 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Way from from the source of our food, and we tend to, as a society, gravitate towards the convenient anytime the convenience factor goes up.
00:31:36 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Risk factor goes up at a higher rate and we don't talk about that.
00:31:41 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Talk about convenience. What I find.
00:31:44 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Is that?
00:31:45 Dr. Darin Detwiler
We recently had this conversation. Someone you know, you pay your rent by check, but we don't want to pay it by cheque.
00:31:52 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Don't want you to pay it by cheque.
00:31:53 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Want you to pay it online?
00:31:55 Dr. Darin Detwiler
OK. But you got to pay a.
00:31:56 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Dollar convenience fee it's like.
00:31:58 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Well, it's not convenience if you have to pay money to make a payment.
00:32:02 Dr. Darin Detwiler
But I'm sorry, convenience as a convenience is the word that makes everything OK. No convenient now makes more risks as part of the.
00:32:12 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Because you know, now you're talking about, you know, banking fraud and security. You know, if you're paying something online and putting your information out on a platform, some third party platform between you and.
00:32:23 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Actually supposed.
00:32:24 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Be paying and when you look at the idea of being able to go on to a grocery app on your phone.
00:32:29 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Have someone do the shopping for you and either deliver to your house or you show up at.
00:32:34 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Grocery store.
00:32:35 Dr. Darin Detwiler
They put into your car.
00:32:36 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Now you're putting your information out there and your purchasing preferences, and you're allowing other people to make purchasing decisions for you again with the convenience factor goes.
00:32:47 Dr. Darin Detwiler
An increase in in various levels of risk in different areas for you, we don't tend to have those conversations.
00:32:54 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Just.
00:32:55 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Oh, this convenient go.
00:32:56 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know we, we we jump too quickly as a society on these things that are convenient and we have to realize that perhaps that's the biggest lesson we need to take here.
00:33:06 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And.
00:33:06 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know, it's like, look, people ask me all the time.
00:33:10 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Well, which foods should I avoid?
00:33:11 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I wish it.
00:33:12 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Was that easy of an answer that?
00:33:13 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Could give you.
00:33:15 Dr. Darin Detwiler
No, there's things we have to do differently in the bigger picture if we want to be safer and it's similar for cybersecurity as well as it is for food safety.
00:33:24 Kristin Demoranville
I mean, I get questions like that too, Darren.
00:33:26 Kristin Demoranville
Know what foods can I can't.
00:33:28 Kristin Demoranville
I.
00:33:29 Kristin Demoranville
Can I not?
00:33:30 Kristin Demoranville
And why are there foreign materials and food?
00:33:33 Kristin Demoranville
And all these other crazy things that are outside of my purview as a cybersecurity professional.
00:33:38 Kristin Demoranville
Insider knowledge, of course.
00:33:40 Kristin Demoranville
And I'm always.
00:33:41 Kristin Demoranville
I'm always sort of frustrated by those questions, but at the same time I'm grateful for them because they're thinking all the way through and there's definitely critical thinking there.
00:33:48 Kristin Demoranville
I usually answer the best of my ability because I don't have all the answers. I think people are looking for the quick answers.
00:33:54 Kristin Demoranville
And the quick solutions and this is not going to necessarily be a quick.
00:33:58 Kristin Demoranville
Solution.
00:34:00 Kristin Demoranville
We're going to take a long, hard.
00:34:00
Convenient.
00:34:01 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah, we're going to take a long hard look. We're really going to have to eat some shame for breakfast and and deal with it. And I think people need to move through that. And the faster we move through that, the more secure we're going to be. And I.
00:34:13 Kristin Demoranville
A lot.
00:34:13 Kristin Demoranville
People are like, oh, this is ridiculous.
00:34:15 Kristin Demoranville
You're talking about shame again.
00:34:17 Kristin Demoranville
And you want to mention the word apathy in a minute.
00:34:19 Kristin Demoranville
Probably am because we do need to be empathetic to the industry.
00:34:23 Kristin Demoranville
They go through a.
00:34:24 Kristin Demoranville
There's a lot of stress there.
00:34:25 Kristin Demoranville
High volume, high production.
00:34:27 Kristin Demoranville
Andrew said it families could lose everything and get paid once a year.
00:34:31 Kristin Demoranville
They need that new.
00:34:32 Kristin Demoranville
And if they have that new tech, how do they keep themselves safe? Secure. What if we get popped?
00:34:36 Kristin Demoranville
Would they call? What? How?
00:34:38 Kristin Demoranville
What is a safety issue like with so many questions that tumble out? There's too many questions and I don't think that's a good thing.
00:34:45 Kristin Demoranville
Should be quick answers too.
00:34:47 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The There's an example of airplanes.
00:34:51 Dr. Darin Detwiler
We know that if we have too many windows, it creates a problem in terms of the structural stability of an airplane, so we can take out a couple windows, but we also know that if we just take out.
00:35:02 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The windows.
00:35:03 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Right. So then it'll be even more.
00:35:05 Dr. Darin Detwiler
But who wants?
00:35:06 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Who wants to fly an airplane with no windows?
00:35:09 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I am a submarine veteran, which is basically.
00:35:11 Kristin Demoranville
It wouldn't bother you?
00:35:13 Dr. Darin Detwiler
But.
00:35:14 Dr. Darin Detwiler
At what point? At?
00:35:15 Dr. Darin Detwiler
At what point is is one more window not really going to solve the?
00:35:20 Dr. Darin Detwiler
So the same thing applies to food. We can have the most secure food safety and cybersecurity.
00:35:29 Dr. Darin Detwiler
System is in.
00:35:30 Dr. Darin Detwiler
All right, let's go for it.
00:35:32 Dr. Darin Detwiler
How much is that one apple?
00:35:33 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Dollars.
00:35:34
Yeah, right. So.
00:35:36 Dr. Darin Detwiler
At what point is that?
00:35:38 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That kind of perfect lines cross apply and demand type of thing in terms of you have to think of it. You have to think of cybersecurity within the food system as a.
00:35:47 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And demand.
00:35:48 Dr. Darin Detwiler
There is a point where okay that Apple is going to cause 10 more cents.
00:35:53 Kristin Demoranville
Oh.
00:35:53 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Okay that that Apple is going to cost 10 more dollars. No way, OK.
00:35:57 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Where is that perfect fit?
00:36:00 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Because there's a point where.
00:36:02 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I'm not going to go to McDonald's because I'm not going to pay $20.00 for the cheeseburger or whatever, right?
00:36:09 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Not going to pay this.
00:36:10 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I'm not going to buy Kraft macaroni and cheese in their box because that box.
00:36:17 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Is not worth 1299. You know, I'm not going to buy this because it's not worth that much. So we can say, look, food safety should not be at a premium at the same time. Nor should cybersecurity be a premium.
00:36:31 Dr. Darin Detwiler
So what is the trade off?
00:36:33 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And unfortunately, the inconvenient truth is that if some of these major corporations are going to survive in the long term, they're going to have to reevaluate the idea of, OK.
00:36:44
00:36:45 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Have record billion dollar profits for this quarter.
00:36:48 Dr. Darin Detwiler
But we didn't do anything for cybersecurity.
00:36:50 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Maybe you should have reinvested some of that profit into cybersecurity and not.
00:36:55 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Feel completely on to the.
00:36:56 Dr. Darin Detwiler
To the consumer because at some point consumers are not going to buy your product anymore because it's too expensive and your company will be out of.
00:37:00
00:37:04 Kristin Demoranville
Business and consumers are signed to care more about sustainability, the environments and a bunch of other factors that are related to keeping.
00:37:05 Kristin Demoranville
I.
00:37:12 Kristin Demoranville
Themselves private, their privacy intact.
00:37:15 Kristin Demoranville
Tracking of their.
00:37:16 Kristin Demoranville
I think people are going to push back on this and that you're going to need cyber for this and NIT and the rest of the technology stack, but it needs to be safe and secure and I don't think people realize how automated and how much tech is in.
00:37:28 Kristin Demoranville
Companies in general.
00:37:30 Kristin Demoranville
And that's the part I'm always raising awareness about.
00:37:32 Kristin Demoranville
Everything's automated.
00:37:33 Kristin Demoranville
Everything. How do you think that food gets there?
00:37:36 Kristin Demoranville
How the delivery services and I know that the different delivery services for food is another topic that we could go off on for a while, not just in terms of privacy, but also in food safety, because sometimes you just thinking about it.
00:37:49 Kristin Demoranville
But the interesting part about this is there are people that are trying to do the right thing and it's.
00:37:53 Kristin Demoranville
Always the gloom.
00:37:54 Kristin Demoranville
Doom that we are expressing here and have expressed.
00:37:58 Kristin Demoranville
I just want to see more of it.
00:37:59 Kristin Demoranville
I want to see more collaboration, more togetherness. I want to see regulation.
00:38:05 Kristin Demoranville
Farmer and benefit and veal.
00:38:07 Kristin Demoranville
To be more empowered to do what we need to do to help secure, I realize that I'm I'm saying this and with hope attached to it. We have a lot of.
00:38:15 Kristin Demoranville
To.
00:38:15 Kristin Demoranville
I don't think that we're going to have a shortage of it anytime soon for sure, but what I'm more concerned about is having to explain to people if I was in a leadership role someday, not specifically me, where any leader of this at a company.
00:38:29 Kristin Demoranville
Having to.
00:38:30 Kristin Demoranville
Why they their product killed X amount of people because of a cyber attack.
00:38:34 Kristin Demoranville
I don't envy that person who has to do.
00:38:37 Kristin Demoranville
My heart hurts already for them because I know they didn't wake up that morning and wish for that, but it happened because they weren't ready and they didn't think it could happen because as being part of this space.
00:38:47 Kristin Demoranville
We are always constantly trying to think about what's what could be the worst. What's the worst case scenario?
00:38:53 Kristin Demoranville
It's about managing risk, so you have to go all the way and think like an.
00:38:57 Kristin Demoranville
Or a bad actor and it kind of puts you in a.
00:38:59 Kristin Demoranville
I call it.
00:39:00 Kristin Demoranville
Security mindset. You just look at the world differently and because of that, we can't.
00:39:04 Kristin Demoranville
That filter off. I see it all the time and it it's it's so hard to watch people do who are really good people, do not, not a whole.
00:39:13 Kristin Demoranville
What? And it's the whole cost of doing nothing.
00:39:16 Kristin Demoranville
Or they're doing just the bare minimum. That might be good enough, but probably not.
00:39:21 Kristin Demoranville
Hard to pay attention.
00:39:22 Kristin Demoranville
Sometimes you just want to jump up and down and scream and shout at the end of the day, I want this industry to be more proactive and building resilience rather than have to go through something and then discover resilience.
00:39:33 Kristin Demoranville
Would be my like wish.
00:39:35 Kristin Demoranville
For the industry, and I'm sure you feel the same way, Darren especially.
00:39:37 Kristin Demoranville
The food safety side.
00:39:38 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Yeah, you know, regulatory.
00:39:41 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know, federally regulated, federally regulated compliance, that's the minimum and.
00:39:46 Kristin Demoranville
OK.
00:39:46 Dr. Darin Detwiler
If all I ever interacted with were leaders from companies that did the bare minimum, I don't know if I would be on my, you know, starting my 32nd year in this business here. There are so many companies that have inspired me because they've gone far beyond doing.
00:39:59 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The minimum and, you know, people say, oh, well, look, McDonald's, in this recent event.
00:40:05 Dr. Darin Detwiler
You know, they haven't been doing they they haven't been in the news for a long time due to failures in food safety.
00:40:10 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Well, there was an incident back in the 80s.
00:40:12 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Guess.
00:40:13 Dr. Darin Detwiler
They went above and beyond and did.
00:40:15 Dr. Darin Detwiler
A ton way beyond the minimum in order to prevent this from happening again. This is one of the reasons why I was very quick to agree with the idea that it's most likely not the hamburgers themselves because they have a temperature or a time lock mechanism into their.
00:40:30 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That would prevent it from being.
00:40:32 Dr. Darin Detwiler
So it's very likely that it's tied to a fresh produce.
00:40:35 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That they're using on their on their.
00:40:38 Dr. Darin Detwiler
There again, the companies that go above and beyond, they are the ones that other companies look at in terms of legacy, in terms of inspiration, in terms of, you know, setting the setting, the course for for where we need to go with these directions and.
00:40:53 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Think that.
00:40:54 Dr. Darin Detwiler
One of the things that perhaps someone if.
00:40:56 Dr. Darin Detwiler
If they have a responsibility for cybersecurity, either inherent in.
00:41:00 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Their job description or not is to look at the idea of not only the legacy of their company, but the legacy of their career in terms of the fact that our legacy should not be like, you know, wherever the wave takes that message in the bottle in the.
00:41:14 Dr. Darin Detwiler
It should be more like. Look how do we?
00:41:17 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Deliberately and intentionally navigate this, you know, can we predict everything?
00:41:21 Dr. Darin Detwiler
No, but if we don't try, we will never do that. And is it possible that something can happen to?
00:41:27 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Yes, sure. But if we are prepared, if we have done practice, you know, mock mock cybersecurity attacks, mock malware attacks, mock scenarios, if we've come up with lessons learned and we talk within our greater community.
00:41:44 Dr. Darin Detwiler
We'll be that much more ready than next.
00:41:46 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That's how we have that intentionality and how we navigate this going.
00:41:50 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That's the difference between someone whose legacy is, yeah, and here's how you were held strictly reliable as the reason why.
00:42:00 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Tower fell down as opposed to your legacy is tied to how well you were able to keep everything together for as long as you could for as many people as you.
00:42:10 Kristin Demoranville
And I completely agree with that. And I think community is going to be a huge portion of.
00:42:15 Kristin Demoranville
Sicilians in general, the ability to be able to share without the worry of shame and and judgment. Just rest practices, whether it's good or bad, across.
00:42:23 Kristin Demoranville
Board learning from each other and the food industry is good at that. I think at least I've seen in the food safety space. Everybody wants to learn. They what did you?
00:42:32 Kristin Demoranville
Explain.
00:42:33 Kristin Demoranville
What do you?
00:42:33 Kristin Demoranville
We have done something.
00:42:34 Kristin Demoranville
I definitely get that the sharing attack vector of information, and I realize we have that other places, but we need it on a grassroots level more and cybersecurity in general is very distrusting. We don't.
00:42:44 Kristin Demoranville
Talking, which I understand that we're in a very specialized space that we see everything, but we can speak in general terms and share that information across without being like such and such company and such and such a day with this study, it doesn't have to be that it.
00:42:58 Kristin Demoranville
Just be like, hey, did she know that the food?
00:43:00 Kristin Demoranville
Under attack, you just have that broad conversation and I think if we did that more between the silos and cut across them like we've been trying to do for a long time, I think.
00:43:09 Kristin Demoranville
Going to make everything better.
00:43:11 Kristin Demoranville
For your thoughts, Darren.
00:43:11 Kristin Demoranville
I really this has been really good.
00:43:13 Kristin Demoranville
Really would like to.
00:43:14 Kristin Demoranville
I like to wrap up on a positive note.
00:43:17 Kristin Demoranville
Do you want to give a little ray of hope?
00:43:18 Kristin Demoranville
Because we definitely all need it.
00:43:20 Dr. Darin Detwiler
If our food system, if our if our food industry.
00:43:23 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Our global supply system, if our if our nation were as simple as any one person.
00:43:31 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Could make or break it.
00:43:33 Dr. Darin Detwiler
It would be what it is.
00:43:34 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The reality is that the Herculean effort that we want to see within food safety within food security within cybersecurity, it requires a Herculean effort from a large group of people.
00:43:47 Dr. Darin Detwiler
Is an enormous amount of work, strength and courage.
00:43:50 Dr. Darin Detwiler
All.
00:43:51 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The solutions we can see at a conference or from some company that can help us with our working strength, those are important.
00:43:57 Dr. Darin Detwiler
But the reality is that courage is a very human element, a very emotional element, and there are so many people out there that are courageous, either by experiences they've had their losses they've gone through, or just their their resiliency resolved to say we will prioritize this no matter.
00:44:14 Dr. Darin Detwiler
We will prioritize this regardless of.
00:44:17 Dr. Darin Detwiler
The factors that that shape the the politics and economics around us that we will hold true to these principles.
00:44:24 Dr. Darin Detwiler
About making sure that we are safe and secure as we can be again, I said this earlier.
00:44:29 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I wouldn't be where I am today on my 30 entering my 32nd year in this. In this this focus of my career, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm surrounded by so many people.
00:44:39 Dr. Darin Detwiler
That do show and demonstrate, and quite honestly they they helped to cultivate the courage of those around them.
00:44:46 Dr. Darin Detwiler
I think we'll always have.
00:44:47 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And you know, we will weather these storms like we have done with the resolve and the fortitude and the, the, the vigilance that that we find not just in technical solutions or in regulatory policies or in in, in funding requests.
00:45:06 Dr. Darin Detwiler
It is in all of us. It is in the courage and in us not only individually, but as as a collective group.
00:45:14 Dr. Darin Detwiler
And that is what I hold on to, even if it means I have to eat some Boston baked beans.
00:45:21 Kristin Demoranville
Thank you very much for being here. That was fantastic.
00:45:26 Kristin Demoranville
Really appreciate it.
00:45:42 Kristin Demoranville
Thank you for tuning into the final episode of Season 1 of the Bison Bites Podcast.
00:45:42
00:45:46 Kristin Demoranville
A big thank you to Andrew Rose and Doctor Darren Dettweller for joining me and sharing their incredible insights and.
00:45:51 Kristin Demoranville
And to all of you listening, thank you for your support, likes, comments and shares, wishing you all a happy New Year.
00:45:57 Kristin Demoranville
Remember to stay safe.
00:45:59 Kristin Demoranville
Stay curious and we'll see you in the new year. Bye for now.
00:46:27
